Posts by Faithful Witness

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

I have not yet received any communication from her. I've been expecting to get a text, confirming our appointment today. I guess there is a possibility that she is chickening out... although she seemed like she wanted to talk about the "truth, the way, and the life."

I continue to wrestle with how to handle this situation. I am not claiming some high calling or anything, but it really seems like the JW's keep appearing all around me, and I know they need help. "Get out of her, you people!" I suspect that I have shaken 1 or 2, as they never came back to answer the questions I posed to them from their own bibles.

Am I supposed to continue trying to help this lady? I know many here do not believe in God anymore, but what is His will in this situation?

Should I run and protect myself from her? Should I continue to plant seeds of doubt? Should I allow her to read that Bible Teach book with me, which will allow me to help her see it for what it really is?

Why does she keep coming back here?

My friend came over yesterday, and suggested that Miss K has been sent to me from the org... like they were conspiring to get to me or something. I don't buy that idea at all, since we live in the territory of one KH, and Miss K goes to another. (we attended the "wrong" one, which was in our zip code). Also, I first ran into her at the store and then a chance meeting at a gas station, leading to a long conversation and her offer to come over.

The same friend is worried that I should not be letting her into my house, as she is a heretic and a deceiver. I've expressed my concerns (and those of cultBgone and others) that Miss K could gain influence over me, if I just let her take control of the conversation every time.

Another friend from a bible study group I belong to, suggested that Miss K has a demon attached to her, and that I should pray over my house and all around it before she comes inside. LOL. I don't know about all THAT...

After making declarations that I "just don't have time to deal with this," I started getting these nagging reminders in my mind that it is not for me to always understand the purpose of the trials and challenges in my life. Maybe I should consider continuing my meetings with her, under different conditions. We can meet for shorter times. I can have my turn to speak and actually finish my sentences. Meet every 2 weeks, instead of every week.

The concern that keeps coming into my mind, is the consequence of ending these sessions by my own choice.

Will the decision to quit meeting with her, mark me in some way? Will the JW's stop calling on me, or will even more of them start avoiding me when they see me in public?

I have been put in a unique situation to reach out. I have inside information, but still enjoy the freedom to talk to most JW's I see. I don't want them to stop coming to my door, either. Do the different congregations communicate with each other and compare notes?

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

punkofnice: That is a great question! I have been asking myself this, since I made the first appointment. I honestly never thought it would go past one meeting. The only reason I have kept meeting with her, is that she keeps coming back! I've scared away every JW who has come to my door in the last 2 years, even though I have invited them back. They don't like my questions, and when we start reading the bible from a passage that I ask about, they suddenly have to leave.

I have been sort of winging it, chipping away at the organization and the things she is so proud of.

I have read lots of opinions and experiences from ex-JW's, and people who care about JW's. The Watchtower has divided my family. I've seen the news reports of the scandals in the Watchtower organization. I've read "apostate" websites, done my own research (as the JW's love to say they do... when do you have time for that??).

I am taking her advice. I still have questions about the JW's. Instead of reading about them, I'm asking one directly.

Based on the recent articles I have read (and I have not read all of them), and the questions that I have been asking her, she is not following the instructions that are being dispensed to her. I have revealed myself, on each of her visits. The only thing I have not done, is quote from their literature and present her with apostate information. (She knows I know, but we have agreed to stick with "inspired" writing).

When I agreed to the first appointment, I thought it wouldn't go beyond that. When I didn't come to the conclusion that Jesus appointed a faithful and discreet slave to feed people their spiritual food after 1914, she wanted to talk about something else.

She came the 2nd time, and tried to prove that JW's are teaching the truth (and therefore everyone else is teaching lies). She asked if JW's taught anything that wasn't true, and I challenged her on the use of the name of Jehovah, even above Jesus Christ (name above all names). I asked her when Jesus told us to call God by his first name. She couldn't prove that either, although she apparently believes that Jesus DID tell us to do that, and it was one of the main reasons He came (to sanctify God's name, which Jesus is never on record as saying the name out loud. He always called him Father... Why didn't he tell us how to pronounce it? Oh, (she said) they changed the bible (removed Jehovah's name in the NT)... Is the bible the true and accurate word of God, or not?).

She might think that I am going to agree to indefinitely allow her to come to my home and make me listen to her rambling on about why she is teaching the truth. She is not even going to get started tomorrow. I've already done the whole Teach book with the JW's.

She asked me last week, if I would be willing to "look at the bible with a fresh perspective."

Since I AM already doing just that, by actually READING the bible, I don't see what she has to offer me. I'm declining her offer, and will be glad to tell her why. Been there, done that. I've already looked from JW perspective. Thank you all for confusing me so much!

I think my initial reason in meeting her, was to try to wake her up and look at her own religion for what it is. She just keeps defending the lies and the changes, doesn't mind being confused about what she actually believes, what instructions they are preparing to give her, etc. She proudly proclaims that none of that matters (or she doesn't need to understand it), because she just knows that JW's have the truth and are pleasing Jehovah God, and then asking me what other things I have questions about.

Tomorrow will be our last meeting, unless SHE wants me to show HER a new perspective. (Is that why she keeps coming back?)

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

Thank you for all of your helpful insight. I have been reading your comments carefully. There are a few things I am considering, in deciding whether to let her into my home, and into my schedule.

1. My own priorities for my family and home this summer. I am a busy mom, and have severaly behind on a few things. As the load of the school year schedule is finally beginning to lighten, do I want to add another thing to my to-do list?

2. Is this what God wants me to do right now? If this is one of the things He wants me to do, then I can make time for it.

3. Am I letting her bring a demon into my house, as someone suggested to me yesterday at my Bible study group? I have found that Christians in general have little compassion for JW's... BUT, is her appearance at this time in my life, Satan at work, trying to distract me and throw me off course?

4. Will this help me have talking points for when I see my mom? -- What if I did this with my mom instead? I wonder if my parents would go through the Bible Teach book with my husband and I?

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

Junkyard: That is where I am headed with her, but am approaching in a more gentle and inquisitive manner. I want to appear interested, but doubtful. She has failed to prove the JW truth, exclusively from the bible, twice. It will eventually get to the point, where she will again say something like, "each person has to draw their own conclusion, and decide who is teaching the truth today."

She has hinted at the fact that the organization had a founder, and seems fully aware that their history is blemished.

We agreed to study "only inspired writings" together. If she really wants to include their "study aids" and publications of the Watchtower, I think she knows I have done my homework.

Now that I see how she operates, and the tactics that she uses, I plan to play the same game with her. I am learning a lot about how to talk to JW's from her... she is good at the game, and I have let her think I am cooperative and deferring to her "expertise," I have been studying her behavior and technique.

8

All things have been fulfilled

by themaccauk11 in

its plain as day what jesus said was to those people standing in fornt of him and it was for one generation only .the prophecies were not about the end of the world but the end of the old jewish system of things.

why do people today since the 1700s put themselves in the shoes of the ones jesus was talking to.

i quote "trtuly i tell you, some of you standing here will not die until you see the son of man coming in his kingdom".

Faithful Witness

I have heard this line of reasoning before. It may be true that none of the prophecies apply today.

This raises a lot of questions for me. If we assume that the Bible is true, how would you answer:

If everything has been fulfilled, what does that mean for us today?

Is the Bible relevant to us? Can modern day humans find hope in Jesus Christ?

Was there already a great tribulation?

Is this the new heavens and new earth?

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

I have been carefully considering my decision, about whether to continue following the suggestion of Miss K: "Take another look at the Bible from a fresh perspective."

Her claims that JW's are the only ones teaching the truth about the Bible are failing the test, when we try to find proof of her claims in the Bible.

I will meet with her again on Friday, but this time I will set more clear boundaries. I have to limit the time to a maximum of 90 minutes, but 60 would be more reasonable. I will have the chance to actually ask my questions, and to finish my sentences. I will not be called names, interrupted or taunted with obscure questions.

I have sincere concerns and questions about what it really means to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Per her advice, I will ask a JW. Since she is the first JW to actually be brave enough to come to the kitchen table, I have given her some deference.

Now that I see how she wants to operate, and groom me for indoctrination, I will get my turn to talk. We can continue our dialog, if it is a 2-way conversation. If she can't work with me in a more agreeable and courteous manner, I will not have time for her every week. It's that simple.

I hope I can get things on track, without scaring her away. I would love to see if she can answer any of my questions truthfully... so far, I have not received any answers (from the Bible).

I will take more notes this time, and if she tries to stop me, I will gently ask her if she is here to answer my questions...

199

Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

by booker-t in

this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

Faithful Witness

Here's a thought...

What if the "light got brighter," and the understanding of the trinity nature of God, has been revealed to true followers of Christ (Christians) today?

That is the reasoning that JW's (Jehovah-ians) use to explain all their made-up doctrines.

8

Grandma called the other day, and chose to tell my kids about the tornadoes

by Faithful Witness in

i know this might be overreacting, and i have not said a peep about it to my kids or anyone else... .

last week, my kids wanted to call my mom during the day.

on her last visit, they had talked about calling her on her day off at home.

Faithful Witness

I think you're right, but it was buggine me and I wanted to hear what it sounded like to others. I am giving her the benefit of the doubt, and I actually don't know that she would even think to use any subtle grooming techniques. Her training seems very limited, and she herself isn't even convinced of the truth.

She is barely attending the ministry school (IF she is at all). She told me she only goes out in service on the weekends that they clean the KH... she doesn't seem very motivated to preach. She might not even be convinced that we are in the end times. I'm not going to make an issue out of it, but will make a note.

Encounters like this, make me actually wonder if I could leave my kids with her overnight. I heard that she visited my other sister, and acted like her old self. She just might be acting JW around me. She has expressed her confusion about her identity. I need to find a way to see her, without the kids along... that is difficult to arrange (and explain).

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

The KH that we attended is located in a rural area, a village where residents often don't even lock their doors. It was a surprise to see the video monitors, but I guess I just accepted it. I am often someone who gives people (undeserved) benefit of the doubt. After seeing the monitors, I did look and see the cameras in the hall and parking lot.

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

Apognophos: There is a desk at the rear of the KH that we attended. A man sits at that desk throughout the entire meeting. It took me a long time to really notice it, as I was always so worried about keeping my babies still and quiet. I had to leave and spend many meetings in the mother's room, nursing and soothing my baby. One day, as I was returning to my seat, I actually looked over at this desk in the corner.

There were between 4-6 tv screens, with black and white video images. I didn't really examine it, but I could see the parking lot and the hallway clearly. It has been a long time since I've been there now, but the images may have been switching views on each screen.

Regarding the bathroom monitoring:

Stress causes some digestive issues for my husband at times. There was one particular time, when I guess he was feeling pretty sick. He went to the restroom, and while he was in there, the elder who was also our BS conductor, came into the men's room and called his name. He said something to the effect of, "Chuck, you're missing the talk! You've been in here a long time." (Not a question about his welfare, but an admonition that he was taking too long on the toilet... my husband is a military veteran, former Army sargeant, and he doesn't take bullying-type behavior).

Mind you, this elder was the same 77 year old man, who waited until he was alone with my husband during one of our BS sessions (I was putting kids to bed). He attempted to "get tough" with my husband... "Are you going to start making progress here, or are you going to let your family be sentenced to destruction at Armageddon?"

Also the same man who threw a little tantrum, when we dared to show him a video of some former JW's, speaking on a panel for a Christian talk show. The man who always had ALL the answers, freaked out on us when we asked him to defend his beliefs. "They're apostates! They're fornicators! They're idolators! Apostates!" His reaction to our sincere question, was enough to cause our "progress" to come to a screeching halt. Game over, when we finally figured out that he had been lying to us the whole time. He flat-out denied that anyone ever believed in the 1975 predictions that the apostates are lying about today.

----------------------

Thank you all again for reading my posts about these experiences, and I do think that this week will most likely be my last session with these ladies. Unless they can be more respectful to me, I don't see why I should continue to study with them. I have no intention of ever becoming a JW, and I know that cultBgone is correct. They are not doing me any good, but really just wasting my time, as I spin my wheels.

I do have compassion for them, and do care about their welfare, but their claims that JW's are teaching the truth, are falling flat. Miss K starts her presentation by telling me that the bible is true, then tells me things that (that are "true,) but that aren't in the bible, but tells me that they are not in the bible because there are errors or omissions in the bible, so the JW's had to insert the name of Jehovah 237 times in the New Testament?

The lies and insults can be saved for someone else. I don't know what I am going to say yet, but I realize that I do have to get myself out of this situation, after reading my own description of what is happening here. When she confirms our appointment, I am going to make sure and tell her that I need to keep it to less than 90 minutes this time. I need to grow a backbone, between now and next Friday. I really am not sure why I agreed to let Miss K into my home, but now that I see how it is going to go, I have changed my mind.

JW's are worthy of outreach, and people who are wishing they could leave, or have their doubts about the organization they serve, should have the freedom to leave without punishment. I have shown these ladies, in the best and only way I am capable of at this time, that they are not teaching the truth at all. They are following an organization, agreeing to believe whatever they are told, whether it is truth or not.

I think I just need to be firm and honest with them. My time and my own sanity have more value than this. I almost wish that I didn't have to wait a week for her to come back, so I can get this over with. I'm guessing that the length of time between BS sessions, is all part of the process. They don't want to come back while you are still "hot." They wait until you cool off and allow it all to start over again. The day AFTER the BS session, is the most full of awareness of what just happened, at least for me.